The Day of the Lord - One Man's Perspective...

The four horsemen of the apocalypse - the White Horse, the Red Horse, the Black Horse and the Pale Horse

THE DAY OF THE LORD
The phrase “day of the Lord” usually identifies events that take place at the end of history (Isaiah 7: 18-25) and is often closely associated with the phrase “that day.”

One key to understanding these phrases is to note that they always identify a span of time during which God personally intervenes in history, directly or indirectly, to accomplish some specific aspect His plan.

Most people associate the day of the Lord with a period of time or a special day that will occur when God’s will and purpose for His world and for mankind will be fulfilled.

Some scholars believe that the day of the Lord will be a longer period of time than a single day—a period of time when Christ will reign throughout the world before He cleanses heaven and earth in preparation for the eternal state of all mankind.

THE DAY OF THE LORD - ONE MAN'S PERSPECTIVE
There are three are even four different views relative to what is commonly known as the Rapture of the Church; Pre-Tribulation, Mid Tribulation, Post Tribulation, and no Rapture at all.

As the administrator of this blog I hold fourth view that there is not going to be Rapture at all; instead I hold the view that those Christians who remain on the earth after the Great Tribulation has come and gone will be gathered together and caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

(However, I do not personally define that as being a Rapture in the sense that most believe there will be a rapture whereby millions and millions of Christians suddenly float up into the air and into Heaven forever.)

Christians will then will return with the Lord to reign with him for a time without end on the earth.

The rage and arguments over the timing of an alleged Rapture continue to come to the boil time and time again and here is the response of one blogger to a letter that he received relative to a Pre-Tribulation Viewpoint of the Rapture.

The author of this letter holds a Post Tribulation point of view and I have decided to repeat it here because it holds the closet analogy that I have found yet to an opinion comparative to ""the Day of the Lord"" that I hold myself.

To this date there has been no reply from the intended recipient of the letter but I still wait with bated breath to see if there will ever be one.

LETTER TO A PRE TRIBULATION FRIEND
Dear ......
Many thanks for your letter on the recent videos. Iron sharpens iron and I am grateful for the time you must have spent in preparing this.

So let’s get to it.

First: Of course we are friends. Your love for Maria and me is obvious and very much appreciated and reciprocated.

You know how much we love seeing you and the fun we always have together is something Maria and I so enjoy.

Sorry the music and opening statement were not to your taste. You are not the first to say so. Some of my other pre-tribulation friends don’t like the music either.

Also the statement is something some of them disagree with too, if for different reasons than yours.

They think it is too long winded.

Others, like my pre-tribulation friend Simon who makes the professional dvds, like it.

No accounting for taste. But if I am honest the majority vote with you on the music.

Actually, ..... the opening statement wasn’t “these people say they understand the Bible”. It was “They tell us we have nothing to fear” followed by “They claim to know the Bible”.

“They claim to know” is a bit different from “These people say they understand..” and a little softer on the ears as “These people” would sound quite dismissive and proud.

I know it is a small difference but I believe an important one.

Also is it not true that prophecy teachers DO claim to know the Bible? If you do not feel you have a grasp of the scriptures what right do we have to stand in a pulpit? So on that basis I feel my statement stands and is not derogatory or insulting but a statement of fact.

I try my best never to come over as a know it all otherwise I wouldn’t include in my conversations with you “I hope I am wrong and you are right”.

I don’t know about Paul Wilkerson, but I know when you and I debate we use scriptures to back our point as often as possible.

To say, as does Philip Powell, we must not be too dogmatic about the rapture timing and the tribulation seems odd to me when Jesus Himself told us when He would return to gather the elect….but more on that later.

Believe me, ...., I am as sure as I can be the rapture is not pre-trib. My saying I hope you are right is just that; a saying. And we must always leave that opening for the scripture we may have missed that clarifies the pre-tribulation position. Though I haven’t had anyone give it to me even though I would love to see it.

Regardless of what Tim La Haye says about post tribbers I do not know one who wants to go through the tribulation. La Haye thinks we look forward to it.

Now if that isn’t an insulting statement what is?

You quoted Luke 21:34 Don’t be overcome with dissipation and cares of this life

Dissipation means (I know you know this) unrestrained indulgence in physical pleasures, especially alcohol, excessive expenditure; wastefulness. Combine that with the anxieties of life or in the Greek: Merimna meaning distraction and I think you have a picture of a backslider; one falling away and losing his or her salvation should they not repent before the Lord’s return.

Also you write “the context is (from verse 25 onwards) the last days”. But if we compare scripture with scripture it is clear when we look at verse 25 onwards we are looking at events coming up to the end of, and AFTER, the tribulation not during or before: compare Matthew:24:26-31

Matthew 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Mathew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mathew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:21-27
Mark 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Mark 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 21: 25-28
Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Notice in each of these gospels the Lord Jesus tells us when He will return and collect the elect.

He even tells His disciples, which I agree with you means all believers, that at this time and at no previous time they are to “look up for your redemption draws nigh”.

It seems a mystery to me that many will use Matthew 24 and say it is for the Jews, then read the same Olivet discourse in Luke 21 and say “look up for your redemption draws nigh” is not for the Jews but for all believers and a pre tribulation rapture. This is the same Olivet Discourse which folks say is for the Jews in Matthew and Christians in Luke!!

The events Jesus had just immediately mentioned in Luke 21: 25 onward were post tribulational and match perfectly with Matt 24’s “Immediately after the tribulation”…then the gathering of the elect follows.

Some good, sincere guys also go for a partial rapture where those who are ready are raptured while the rest are left to be purified in the tribulation and are collected at the end.

But we must remember the foolish virgins did not go through the night (tribulation) and then get into the wedding. They were cast out and there is no mention of a second chance. Again backsliders come to mind who have no oil (Spirit).

One other thing, the groom came at the darkest hour not before the night came...pre-trib.
So I for one can’t see a partial rapture leaving the rest to get their act cleaned up. Instead I see the groom arriving at the darkest time then judging those unfaithful servants, foolish virgins etc.

The next passage you quoted was 2 Thessalonians. 2.

The first word I think we need to look at is not apostasia but Parousia which every pre-tribber I know of (Ice, La Haye etc) says is the pre-tribulation rapture even though the word is usually placed in a post tribulatio scenario in the scriptures.

In 2Thessalonians. 2:1 Paul mentions 'our gathering' after the Parousia. First the Parousia (coming) then the gathering.

Several verses later (2:8) Paul mentions the Parousia again but it is definitely in a post trib scenario.

Immediately before these verses, in 2 Thessalonians. 1:6-10, Paul is speaking about Jesus’ post- tribulation coming and he says in verse 6,7 that it is then we shall have rest when He is revealed in flaming fire, not before, which ties in with Matthew.24: 31, 1 Thessalonians. 4, Revaltion.6, 14 and 19.

So it would seem odd to be writing in 2 Thessalonians. Chapter 1 about the Lord’s post tribulation parousia promising rest at that time and not before, then to write in Chapter 2 about a pre tribulation parousia in verse 1and then to continue to write about a post tribulation parousia in 2:8.

Also in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 the disciples asked the Lord for the sign of His Parousia and He replied by telling them of His post tribulational return for the elect……not one hint of a pre-tribulation Rapture. Ever.

Okay so let’s look at Apostasia. In the Greek of Paul’s day the word apostasia meant a departure from a religious or political affiliation. In fact the word was still used to mean the same in 1965 when members of a Greek trade union defected causing the toppling of Greek Prime minister Papendreou. These defectors were known as the “apostates”.

So I can’t see how apostasia means the physical departure of the church to Heaven because to me Paul is saying the Parousia and our gathering and the day of the Lord will not come until first the apostasia, the defection from Christ and the appearance of the Antichrist.

Interestingly FB Meyer whom the PWMI are proud to put up as one of their main founders held this same view in his Bible commentary. I sent the particular portion of his commentary to ..... and he wrote back saying I had misread it!

But Meyer had written concerning 2 Thessalonians. 2 “First the man of sin then the Son of Man.”

Also concerning the Day of the Lord, Isaiah, Joel and Jesus agree certain events must take place before it comes:

Isaiah:
Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Isaiah 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Isaiah 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Joel:
Joel 3:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

Joel 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

Joel 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

Joel 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

(Tie the above verses in with Revelation 14:14-16 and Rev. 19.)

Jesus: Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation:
Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Interestingly all 6 seals of Revelation correspond to the signs Jesus gave in Matthew 24
(see attached page).

So after looking at these scriptures I believe the day of the Lord begins after the tribulation just as the Lord Jesus said. It is only then in Revelation.6:17 do men cry the day of God’s wrath IS come. Indicating it had not fallen until this moment.

Malachi also says Elijah will come before the day of the Lord.

If the day of the Lord encompasses the entire 7 years of Daniel’s 70th week that cannot happen until Elijah appears and events take place in the sun and moon and stars.

But Jesus says they do not happen until after the tribulation and it is only then He mentions a Rapture.

Joel says they happen at the same time as the battle of Armageddon and the earth is reaped at the same time as is show in Revelation. 14.

So I believe the church is Raptured around the time of the start of the day of the Lord after the tribulation.

Interestingly the bride only makes her appearance and is given white robes to wear in Revelation 19 immediately before Armageddon which ties in with Revelation. 14, Isaiah 13 and Joel 3’s valley of Jehoshaphat.

Surely the bride hasn’t been sitting around for 7 years or more following a pre tribulation rapture waiting to get dressed?

This is immediately before Armageddon, around the time when the cosmic signs take place, just before the day of the Lord. Exactly as the Lord Jesus stated in Matthew 24 etc.

It is plain to me this is a post tribulation Rapture. If I am wrong someone please show me.

I am not perfect at all, ask Maria, but looking at scripture and taking it at face value there is not one ounce of a scripture for a pre tribulation rapture that is as plain as these for a post trib one.
It just is not there.

Anyway enough of a rant let’s move on…..are we still friends? I hope so.

The Philadelphian church.

Revelation 3:10:
Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Firstly: There is no scriptural warrant for saying the 7 churches are 7 church ages.
That is inferred and seems to be “adding to the words of the book” something strictly forbidden.

If however we grant they are pictures of 7 church ages and the Philadelphian church age is raptured, that still leaves one more church age, the Laodicean, which means the church is still on earth after the rapture!

But one still has to prove from scripture the 7 churches are 7 ages.

The Laodiceans are still the Lord’s people because he pleads with them to change their ways (v 18) and says he loves them (v 19) and promises rewards to the overcomers (v 21).

If one follows the “7 ages” idea this also knocks imminence on the head because if the church has always expected the Lord at any moment they were wasting their time because the 7 ages had to be fulfilled. These “ages” could not be fulfilled if the church had (imminently) been raptured at any time before their completion.

Also when we come to Revelation 3:10:

Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I also will keep thee from the hour of the trial that is about to come upon all the world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.

Surely the words “keep from” Tereo ek in Greek, must have the same meaning for all readers whether Philadelphia in the first century or the global church of the last days.

So when was the church of Philadelphia Raptured?

I know it sounds like a stupid, dumb question but if these words do not mean the same for all readers then how do we establish what they mean for anyone?

Answer: by our own interpretation of the verse which, in the end, can mean whatever we want it to mean.

I notice you gave me a whole wealth of scriptures for this verse, Revelation 3:10

One verse I particularly noticed was John 17 when the Lord prays for His followers:

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them (tereo ek) from the evil.

The Lord Jesus prays using the same words “keep from” Tereo ek that He uses in Revelation 3:10. But it is obvious He is not praying for them to be raptured, in fact he actually says so.

It’s the same Lord Jesus speaking in John

It’s the same Lord Jesus speaking in Revelation.

It’s the same apostle writing in both books.

It’s the same Greek words he uses in John 17:15 and in Revelation 3:10.

But when reading John 17:15 we are asked to believe these words mean exactly the opposite to the same words he writes in Revelation3:10!

Surely not.

Or how about Jeremiah and Jacob’s trouble?

Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

You’ve probably guessed “out of” in the Greek Septuagint of Jer. 30:7 is the same as Revelation 3:10 and John 17:15, Tereo ek.

So does this mean the Jews will be Raptured before the time of Jacob’s trouble?

Of course not. It means those faithful will go through and not give way to temptation, to give up; they will endure it.

Why then should the same Greek phrase in Jeremiah 30:7 and John 17:15 mean the same but then mean something totally different when read in Revelation 3:10?

And to add to the confusion, we are expected to believe this means one thing for the church of Philadelphia (they were not Raptured) but another for the end time church (they will be)?

So from a simple reading I can only see a protection from temptation to fall during the troubles not a snatching out before they begin.

Interestingly the Philadelphian church was protected from falling during the persecution by the emperor Trajan soon after this letter was written and it still exists today.

But the point is the Philadelphian church remained on the planet.

I notice also you state that post tribbers believe John 17:15 means they shall be kept from physical harm and thus the saints in the tribulation will be also protected in the same way.

I don’t know what post tribulation. book you read, ...., because all the ones I have read on the subject (I concede I have certainly not read them all) say the opposite.

The verse means to be kept from falling, giving way under intense pressure and temptation not physical protection.

If the Lord Jesus’ prayer in John 17 was for the physical protection of the apostles, the prayer failed miserably. They were stoned, whipped, beaten, imprisoned, beheaded, crucified upside down and so on.

All died terrible deaths apart from John.

But they kept faithful and did not give way to the temptation to throw in the towel.

So the Lord’s prayer was fulfilled. They were kept from the evil one in that they were upheld from falling to temptation to give up.

Those faithful who go through the tribulation will likewise be kept from giving way to the temptation to follow the antichrist and avoid persecution.

As with the early church many will defect and betray their fellow believers during the tribulation.

But………. pre-tribbers still have to prove from scripture the 7 churches are 7 ages or the argument that Rev 3:10 is a rapture verse for the end time church falls at the first hurdle.

My feeling, for what it is worth as a layman, is that the letters were foremost to the 7 churches and are a message to us also because we find every kind of believer in the global church that we find in the 7 churches, and that is as far as I think we can take the idea.

Luke 21:34-36 “Pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen and that you may be able to stand before the son of Man.”

To take these verses from the same Olivet discourse we find in Matthew and Mark where Jesus continually says to his disciples “when you see…” and then to use them as a proof text for a pre tribulation rapture just doesn’t seem to fit right.

Why warn your disciples about the end times saying to them “when you see” and then say “Now pray that you will be raptured before any of this happens?”

Besides “escape” in the Greek is “ekpheugo” which simply means to “escape out of the midst of.” Also the immediate verses before this shows Jesus was speaking to those who would live in the time of the Antichrist.

Again comparing scripture with scripture we find this fits exactly with Revelation 7 which follows the sealing of the 144,000 Jews and before that the start of the day of the Lord in chapter 6.

In Rev 6 the seals take us through most of the 7 years to the opening of the 6th seal and the cosmic signs at the end of the tribulation (Matthew 24: 29-31; Mark 13:24-27; Luke 21:25-28).

Following this, in Revelation 7, we see the sealing of the 144,000 Jews (nowhere does it say they are evangelists) then we see a great crowd appear in heaven who are dressed in white and who have come “out of” great tribulation.

Rev 19 repeats the above. After Babylon is destroyed, Chapter 18, a great crowd appears in heaven and dress in white. This is the bride. Then she follows Christ down to Armageddon.

Link this also with Revelation. 14 :8 Babylon is fallen; the earth is reaped (rapture) verse 14,16; The angels gather antichrist and his armies to Armageddon verses 18-20;

See also chapter 16: Revelation 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

Revelation 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

Revelation 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Revelation 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

If there is a pre tribulation Rapture it seems odd for the Lord to issue a warning to believers “I am coming as a thief” a term used for a pre tribulation Rapture, and a command to watch, right here before Armageddon. I do not agree the “hour of trial” is the wrath of God. It is an hour of trial, testing, temptation the same testing the early church and the church throughout history have endured. But this time it will be more severe, more violent, more widespread.

As you said to “keep from” is to be unpolluted from the world. From giving in to temptation. We can’t do as you have, and put that on a par with “famines, earthquakes, wars, floods etc.”

Not one of the scriptures you gave re; “kept from”, “keep from” suggested anything like that.

The church has always experienced temptations but she has never been lifted out of the planet to avoid it. Why now? But she will be removed before the day of the Lord.

You agreed with me that the seals in Revelation 5 correspond to Matt 24. Both of which conclude with the day of the Lord and the cosmic signs given by Isaiah, Joel and Jesus.

Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Isaiah 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Isaiah 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil,

Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Matthew 24: 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

In Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Revealtion 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Notice, this is at the end of the tribulation and it is only now they cry out “the great day of his wrath Is come.” Judgment is about to fall now not 7 years earlier.

Noah and Lot left the same day the judgment fell.

We leave just before the day of the Lord at the end of the tribulation.

Finally we seem to have come around to the end of your letter and to the fact that the crowd comes out of great tribulation. Revelation 7: 13, 14. Actually although you write “Having escaped from..” it doesn’t say that. It says “come out of.”

Surely I cannot come out of something I have not been in, can I? If I come out of the bath (a rare happening, I know) I haven’t avoided being in it have I?

You write it is “a motion of one place to another”. Yes out of the tribulation to the clouds and even if we use the word you used, “escape”, the Greek word in Luke for escape means out from the midst of. Not before; not avoiding the object.

At this moment I am sure the Rapture is post tribulational because Jesus said so.

I know that sounds cocky which I most certainly hope I am not. I must simply trust what the word says, as must we all.

But sadly we seem to be reading different books.

It’s a mystery to me why you can’t see the same as me. And I am sure you are puzzled as to why I am unable to grasp your point of view.

But if “keep from” means to endure and stand against temptation
If escape means from the midst of,

If the reaping in Joel and Revelation is just prior to Armageddon,

If the crowd / bride appears in heaven just before Armageddon in Rev 7, and 19,

If Paul says we go around the time of the day of the Lord,

If Jesus puts the cosmic events preceding the day of the Lord after the tribulation,

If Jesus says he will collect us after the tribulation when the cosmic events occur……

I cannot go with my dear friends who see otherwise when scripture says not one word about a rapture, reaping, gathering or crowd suddenly appearing in heaven before the tribulation but instead consistently places these events following the tribulation as the day of the Lord commences.

My pastor is pre-tribulation, My church is pre-tribulation, 99.9% of the places I preach in are pre-trib. And

I love them all.

Please forgive me if I am blind. I cannot see a pre trib rapture and I wish I could.

In Him.

Your friend and brother.

EU Gets New Status at the UN

This is the kind of news that often goes unnoticed in spite of its importance.

EUobserver reports that Member States have agreed to table a resolution in the UN General Assembly (UNGA) to give the EU the right to speak at the Assembly.

This means that in the future the president of the European Council (currently Herman Van Rompuy) will be able to address the General Assembly just like any other head of state.

The EU also wants to get the right to make proposals and submit amendments, the right of reply, the right to raise points of order and the right to circulate documents.

Now this does not mean that the European Union will become a full member of the UN; that is impossible under current conditions. But this move is quite typical for the EU approach – gradual transformation and “fusion in action”.

Countdown to War?

By Jerry Golden

Time seems to be running out according to many reports coming out of Israel, including the following:

Reports coming out of southern Lebanon tells us that UN Troops are under attack by Hezbollah and Lebanese civilians who are not being allowed into villages along the border with Israel. Air and other surveillance has shown that a huge amount of weaponry, including missiles, is being moved closer to Israel's border. Our news agencies here in Israel are telling us that Hezbollah is preparing for war and have escalated their movements as if they plan on being in a war very soon. One thing is very certain; the threat of war is growing by the minute. The IDF is on HIGH alert and soldiers are being advised to stay close to their units.

To ensure Hezbollah is fully aware that we know what they are doing in the villages near our borders, the IDF has been broadcasting aerial surveillance videos on TV showing that they are placing missiles and other weapons near Schools, Mosques, and Hospitals in order to assure a victory [at least in the national news media] for Israel will have no choice but to go after them. They are getting ready to fight two wars, the first one on the ground and the second for international opinion. This time around the Lebanese Government has brought Hezbollah into their government - making all of Lebanon open for Israel to attack. Syria has supplied Hezbollah with scud missiles capable of reaching all of Israel. Syria has been told that should Hezbollah use one of the scuds in an attack on Israel that she will pay a very heavy price (Isa 17:1).

What the IDF knows about the new weapons Hamas has in Gaza, and how efficient they are, remains to be seen. However, one thing is certain; things will be much different this time and both of Iran's terrorist groups (Hezbollah and Hamas) could be planning a pre-emption and distraction for an Iranian attack.

What is now known is that the Saudis are also uptight over the Iranian threat. Not only have they opened their air space for an Israeli fly-over, but have even allowed Israel to use a couple of their airfields for refuelling. This brings to mind the Arab saying "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".

Speaking of distractions; Libya is sending another "aid" ship to crash the Gaza blockade. This of course means diverting a lot of our naval resources to intercept this vessel - when they could be better used patrolling the Lebanese coast.

Once again I catch myself, like many others, shouting wolf, wolf! Well folks, the wolf is here and the question is; is he crazy or brave enough to attack? Talking with a few friends today in Jerusalem [who are all ex military officers], they believe we are about to go into some very hard days and they are very concerned.

As for this Ministry we are moving forward and we know we must keep our eyes on the things God has set before us. As for survival, we can only do so much and then the rest is in God's Hands - yet I am sure He expects us to do so much.

All of this at a time when America has been taken over by Mr. Hussein Obama and the corrupted ones he has gathered around him to finish off the United States. I have never been able to understand how he was elected, and what is even harder too understand is how he is still sitting in the White House? My only answer is that a people get the government they deserve? Don't get mad at me - just look around your country and be honest.

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem, for our son Joel and all the IDF soldiers. Pray for this Ministry and your part.

The Literal Meaning of the Bible - the Rapture and the Antichrist

(1). I have read the Bible from cover to cover and I cannot find one mention of an event which describes Christians suddenly being whisked up into the air on a grand scale (millions and millions of Christians at the onetime) and into Heaven to be with the Lord forever, without dying first of course.

I can see several references to a couple of episodes whereby there have been certain select individuals who have been taken up into Heaven without dying; but, I cannot find a single reference to the scenario mentioned above of such an episode happening in one instance to literally millions and millions of Christians, all at the one time.

When the Lord returns back onto the earth, I can see several Biblical references to the dead in Christ arising first and then the Christians that are still alive after Great Tribulation being taken up into the air and then returning back onto the earth to reign with the Lord forever.

Furthermore, for anyone to say they know when such an event will occur is prosperous and is comparable to saying they know when the Lord is going to return back onto the earth; when the reality is that there no one alive, not now or not into the future, that knows the timing of "'the Day of the Lord"'.

However, I do not account for such an event as being as being a Rapture in the sense that I have mentioned above, but rather I see such an occurrence as a meeting up with the Lord, and not a Rapture.
Anyone can of course discount this analogy as long and as hard as they wish but those that choose to do so must provide scriptural evidence to support their theories, scriptural evidence that I will, and can, quite easily dispute.

(2). The Bible says there are many Antichrists and anyone who is against Christ is an Antichrist.

Yet, I find it to be quite incredulous that just as the word Rapture is never ever mentioned in the Bible how do so many people, whether rightly or wrongly, assume that the beast is the Antichrist when there is never ever any reference made to either of the two beasts of Revelation as being the Antichrist, when they are rather simply referred to as being just that -- Beasts.

Even later on in the book of Revelation we are told that Satan will be thrown into the Lake of Fire were the Beast and the False Prophet are: note well in that instance the word Antichrist is never ever used, so how do so many assume that either of the two beasts of Revelation, or even the Little Horn or Daniel, is an Antichrist when he is referred to as a Beast - but not of necessity an Antichrist ?

That of course is a question that I cannot answer!

There are four separate horns in Daniel Chapter 7. I know they are separate horns because they all do different things with the last horn subduing three nations just as the newly appointed EU president Herman Van Rompuy has done in relation to Greece, Spain and Portugal comparative to their financial difficulties.

However I would hesitate to call him the Antichrist or the False Prophet simply because the Bible does not brand him as such but simply labels him as being a Little Horn.

Therefore, as the word Antichrist is never mentioned comparative to the two beasts of Revelation and as we are only told he has ten horns the Little Horn of Daniel could be either one of the two beasts of Revelation?

Daniel Chapter7
Chapter 7 is a foundational chapter in understanding bible prophecy and God’s plan for the nations. In this chapter, Daniel sees a vision, which maps out the course of nations, leading to the kingdom of God.

Chronologically this chapter takes place between chapters 4 and 5. Chapter 5 is the final year of Belshazzar’s reign 539 B.C., and the transition between the Babylonian and Persian kingdoms.

Chapter seven, takes place in the first year of Belshazzar’s reign, 553 B.C. Daniel has a vision of four great beasts rising out the turbulent waters of the great sea. Daniel however, focuses on the fourth beast and its meaning.

Along with the four beasts Daniel, also sees events taking place in Heaven. He describes the “Ancient of Days”, and the “Son of man”, who will succeed the earthly kingdoms of the four beasts. Chapter 7 complements the pattern established in the second chapter. In the second chapter, Nebuchadnezzar has a dream, of an immense image with a head of gold, arms and chest of silver, thighs of bronze, legs of iron and feet made from iron and clay.

In this dream, a stone from a mountain smashes the image at its iron and clay feet. The stone becomes an enormous mountain encompassing the earth. The explanation given by Daniel is that each segment of the image represents a succeeding earthly kingdom, with the head of gold representing Nebuchadnezzar.

The stone represents the kingdom of God crushing the kingdoms of man and God’s kingdom established on the earth. More light is shed on God’s program in chapter 7. Here in seven, we see the division of kingdoms represented by 4 beasts; a lion, bear, leopard and a horrific beast with iron teeth and bronze claws.

The culmination of history ends when a son of man destroys this final kingdom pictured as the fourth beast. This fourth beast corresponds with the Iron and clay feet “Kingdom" in Daniel chapter 2.

Dan 7:1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, [and] told the sum of the matters. Dan 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. Dan 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. Dan 7:4 The first [was] like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it. Dan 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and [it had] three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. Dan 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it. Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it [was] diverse from all the beasts that [were] before it; and it had ten horns. Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn [were] eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire. Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld [even] till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed. Dan 7:15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of [my] body, and the visions of my head troubled me. Dan 7:16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, [are] four kings, [which] shall arise out of the earth. Dan 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever. Dan 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth [were of] iron, and his nails [of] brass; [which] devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns that [were] in his head, and [of] the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even [of] that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look [was] more stout than his fellows. Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom [are] ten kings [that] shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. Dan 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy [it] unto the end. Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Dan 7:28 Hitherto [is] the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.

Our new Prime Minister Julia Gillard - Australia's shame

I live in Australia which is supposedly a Christian country and yet the current government has just sacked it's leader for allegedly being down in the polls when they were so close to an election.

The truth is that he was sacked because he chose to do his own thing and go against his political masters as they go about setting up a World Government.

In his place we now have a single female, atheist, Prime Minister who is shacked up with her boyfriend.

One may therefore rightly ask what sort of an example is that to set for the youth of the nation when the young people see their Prime Minister doing that doesn't that send out a message that if Julia is doing it why isn't it alright for me to do it?

Nonetheless, nobody seems to mind at all as all they seem to be concerned with are her policies; the worst part is it looks very much like she is going to win the election due to take place within a few weeks. Australia is not a Christian country it is a pagan country and has taken its eyes off the ball by going away from God -- and for that we will suffer the consequences.

As Australia is predominately a pagan nation Julia Gillard will not be hurt by revealing (when questioned, note) she is an atheist.

Of the 12 prime ministers preceding her, Kevin Rudd alone was overtly Christian. He wore it like a neon sign on his sleeve. Press conferences outside church on a Sunday were common. For sheer crassness, it was hard to top the efforts of Rudd in lobbying the Pope to declare Mary McKillop a saint.

It beats John Howard’s performance of visiting Bob Santamaria on his deathbed. Howard must have known that Santamaria, although the fearsome enemy of Communism, could not stand him. In the end none of this helped Rudd when the polls began to drop.

Of the PMs who came to, or remained in office, as a result of an election, neither Curtin, Chifley, Menzies, Holt, Gorton, Whitlam, Fraser, Hawke, Keating or Howard was regularly seen on their knees, apart from funerals and weddings. (I include those who remained in office as a result of an election because some became PM as a result of changes in party leadership — for example, Gorton became PM on the death of Holt and subsequently won the 1969 election).

Hawke as PM was an agnostic and Whitlam a proud atheist. Whitlam earned the undying hatred of the churches when he removed the sales tax from the contraceptive pill for women. The general population thought it a great idea.

The founding fathers wisely decided that Australia should have a secular Constitution, not attached to any religion. Whitlam’s most famous reference to the Almighty came with his dismissal by the Governor-General, Sir John Kerr in 1975. Then came the dramatic reading of the instrument of dissolution of the parliament on the front steps of the building by Kerr’s secretary, David Smith. The steps were crowded with onlookers and MPs and Whitlam was slightly behind Smith looking over his shoulder. When Smith finished his reading with the standard exhortation ‘God save the Queen’, Whitlam told those assembled: “Well may he say God save the Queen, for nothing will save the Governor-General.”

Last Easter, the churches and atheists had a good old stoush on whether or not there is a God. Whatever the intellectual argument, it’s clear most Australians couldn’t care less about God.

Bureau of Statistics figures show that in 2001 barely 10% named a Christian religion to which they adhered. Between 1996 and 2001 (a mere five years), the number of adherents dropped by 7%. The biggest denomination, Catholic was a mere 764,800 in 2001, amounting to a dismaying drop (for the church) of 13%. Anglican/Protestant, the next biggest denomination at 759,000, was steady. Only the Holy roller, hot gospeller, minority groups gained substantial ground.

Church attendance is currently less than 8% of the total population and those at church are mostly grey haired old ladies. The small Muslim population is, of course, devoted to their Mosque and there is a much smaller group of Buddhists. Fortunately the Almighty, unlike the unfortunate United States, does not receive calls from political leaders (even Rudd when PM) to assist them in their various missions.

George Bush was always calling on Him (or Her for the sisterhood) for assistance in wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

In Canberra, the Lord’s Prayer is read by the speaker and senate president every day to start proceedings. This was not the practice in the first parliament after Federation and it was because of pressure from a much larger (proportionately) population of Christians that the parliament agreed to prayers.

Gillard will of course show respect to those who have religious faith, but Australians generally, apart from having no interest in religion, regard it as a private matter as they do s-xual preferences of others.

Tony Abbott, who once trained for the priesthood, is a devout Catholic, but will not attempt to make anything of Gillard’s atheism. He should make sure that every Coalition MP gets this message.

In Anne Frank's old home town of Amsterdam, Jews are again being hunted down.

Jews are once again being hunted down in Europe. Worldwide anti-semitism is at fever pitch - a sure sign that we are in the end times immediately prior to our Lord's return. Jesus was a Jew, something the world forgets. Satan is stirring up attacks on Jews as, if they can be wiped out - no Second Advent. It won't work. But two thirds of the world's Jews will be killed, the Bible predicts. Here's what's happening in Anne Frank's old home town..... Note the coy way the Telegraph refers to "young men often of immigrant origin.." They actually mean the tidal wave of Islamic immigrants pouring into Europe, where up to ten per cent of the population- a young ten per cent- is now Islamic.

The Greater Depression will soon arrive. The real story is here and it's not what you'll hear on most big media.

Photo: EPA

With the US trapped in depression, this really is starting to feel like 1932? The US workforce shrank by 652,000 in June, one of the sharpest contractions ever. The rate of hourly earnings fell 0.1pc. Wages are flirting with deflation.

By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard (of The Daily Telegraph, London - one of the few commentators worth reading!)

People queue for a job fair in New York. The share of the US working-age population with jobs in June fell from 58.7pc to 58.5pc. The ratio was 63pc three years ago. "The economy is still in the gravitational pull of the Great Recession," said Robert Reich, former US labour secretary. "All the booster rockets for getting us beyond it are failing."

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Monetary union has left half of Europe trapped in depression
Asia needs to fully wake up to the scale of the West's economic crisis Eurozone falls into deflation as M3 money supply shrinks
Wages fall at fastest rate since records began Deflation: workers face more pay freezes as prices fall at sharpest rate since 1933 Ambrose Evans-Pritchard:

Comment "Home sales are down. Retail sales are down. Factory orders in May suffered their biggest tumble since March of last year. So what are we doing about it? Less than nothing," he said. California is tightening faster than Greece. State workers have seen a 14pc fall in earnings this year due to forced furloughs.

Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger is cutting pay for 200,000 state workers to the minimum wage of $7.25 an hour to cover his $19bn (£15bn) deficit. Can Illinois be far behind? The state has a deficit of $12bn and is $5bn in arrears to schools, nursing homes, child care centres, and prisons. "It is getting worse every single day," said state comptroller Daniel Hynes. "We are not paying bills for absolutely essential services.

That is obscene." Roughly a million Americans have dropped out of the jobs market altogether over the past two months. That is the only reason why the headline unemployment rate is not exploding to a post-war high.

Let us be honest.
The US is still trapped in depression a full 18 months into zero interest rates, quantitative easing (QE), and fiscal stimulus that has pushed the budget deficit above 10pc of GDP. The share of the US working-age population with jobs in June actually fell from 58.7pc to 58.5pc.

This is the real stress indicator.
The ratio was 63pc three years ago. Eight million jobs have been lost. The average time needed to find a job has risen to a record 35.2 weeks. Nothing like this has been seen before in the post-war era.

Jeff Weniger, of Harris Private Bank, said this compares with a peak of 21.2 weeks in the Volcker recession of the early 1980s. "Legions of individuals have been left with stale skills, and little prospect of finding meaningful work, and benefits that are being exhausted.

By our math the crop of people who are unemployed but not receiving a check amounts to 9.2m." Republicans on Capitol Hill are filibustering a bill to extend the dole for up to 1.2m jobless facing an imminent cut-off. Dean Heller from Vermont called them "hobos".

This really is starting to feel like 1932.
Washington's fiscal stimulus is draining away. It peaked in the first quarter, yet even then the economy eked out a growth rate of just 2.7pc. This compares with 5.1pc, 9.3pc, 8.1pc and 8.5pc in the four quarters coming off recession in the early 1980s. The housing market is already crumbling as government props are pulled away.

The expiry of homebuyers' tax credit led to a 30pc fall in the number of buyers signing contracts in May. "It is cataclysmic," said David Bloom from HSBC. Federal tax rises are automatically baked into the pie. The Congressional Budget Office said fiscal policy will swing from a net +2pc of GDP to -2pc by late 2011.

The states and counties may have to cut as much as $180bn. Investors are starting to chew over the awful possibility that America's recovery will stall just as Asia hits the buffers. China's manufacturing index has been falling since January, with a downward lurch in June to 50.4, just above the break-even line of 50. Momentum seems to be flagging everywhere, whether in Australian building permits, Turkish exports, or Japanese industrial output.

On Friday, Jacques Cailloux from RBS put out a "double-dip alert" for Europe. "The risk is rising fast. Absent an effect policy intervention to tackle the debt crisis on the periphery over coming months, the European economy will double dip in 2011," he said. It is obvious what that policy should be for Europe, America, and Japan.

If budgets are to shrink in an orderly fashion over several years – as they must, to avoid sovereign debt spirals – then central banks will have to cushion the blow keeping monetary policy ultra-loose for as long it takes. The Fed is already eyeing the printing press again.

"It's appropriate to think about what we would do under a deflationary scenario," said Dennis Lockhart for the Atlanta Fed. His colleague Kevin Warsh said the pros and cons of purchasing more bonds should be subject to "strict scrutiny", a comment I took as confirmation that the Fed Board is arguing internally about QE2. Perhaps naively, I still think central banks have the tools to head off disaster.

The question is whether they will do so fast enough, or even whether they wish to resist the chorus of 1930s liquidation taking charge of the debate. Last week the Bank for International Settlements called for combined fiscal and monetary tightening, lending its great authority to the forces of debt-deflation and mass unemployment. If even the BIS has lost the plot, God help us.

The New World Order is being created before your eyes! The Euro - Europe's common money - is in trouble and riots, financial meltdown and dictatorship

By ALAN FRANKLIN.

ALAN writes: I was reporting in the European Parliament when the members voted to give up their nations' independence by adopting a common currency, the Euro. I later told some of the MEPs (Members of the European Parliament) that the end game would be a dictatorship, to eventually be headed by the Antichrist. Of course, they didn't take me seriously. However, that is now the way we are fast heading, as a currency meltdown will hasten the ending of all freedom and the bringing in of the big brother world government.

The Euro - the currency used by 15 of the 27 nations making up the EU superstate – the country called Europe –is under strain. Riots in Greece, with more likely to follow elsewhere, show what happens when a nation cannot allow its currency to rise or fall according to market sentiment. The Euro is run from Germany by the European Central Bank and Germans only agreed to abandon their Deutschmark when they were assured the Euro would be a strong currency – and they would basically run it, from Frankfurt.

So interest rates have always been set to please Germany, the European nation with the largest population and strongest economy. This, however, has been disastrous for the southern nations like Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal. Unable to set their own monetary policy and forced to live with interest rates unsuited to their needs, the result has been looming bankruptcy.

Britain, which retains the pound, has been able to set its own interest rates and allow the currency to find a level appropriate for Britain’s economic position – currently poor. But the nations trapped in the Euro are like economic prisoners, with the only solution to their financial woes the cutting of jobs and wages. That’s why there are riots in Greece.

Other nations are likely to have to follow suit, so expect the troubles to spread. Many people are saying that the Euro is doomed. This is not so. The leaders of Europe will do what it takes to keep the “project” going forward, for the aim is to create a single nation state with one economic government. A slogan of the EU is “ever closer union” and they won’t let a small matter like national bankruptcies – Greece and others are in reality broke - stop the project careering forward.

What you are seeing in Europe now is the creation of a dictatorship, for the EU chiefs believe in never wasting a good crisis. The EU financial leaders, appearing daily on business TV channels, keep saying things like 2the Euro will not be allowed to fail.” They mean it. The EU project was always political as it makes no economic sense. The EU is basically just a vast spider-web of red tape and asinine rules, all extremely costly to nations like Britain, whose taxpayers now pay to pave roads in Spain, and so on. It was built on a lie – that the nation state was not under threat.

Traitors like former British Prime Minister Ted Heath always told British voters this before finally, not long before he died, admitting on TV that this was untrue- the EU was always a political project. So what happens next? British trade unionist John Monks, reported in The Daily Mail, says EU Commission President Jose Barroso told him democracy could collapse in some European countries unless urgent action is taken.

Here I hand over to my friends at The Euro Realist magazine for this pithy riposte: “Most people will be having a problem getting their heads around this comment due to President Barroso and his EU being the driving force undermining democracy across Europe for many years. “They are now bewailing the fact that the global financial crisis, made much worse in Europe by the creation of the euro, could undermine democracy in Spain, Portugal and Greece! Despite this the EU continues undermining the democracies of all the other member nations too.

“According to 'brother' Monks, Jose Barroso has set out an 'apocalyptic' vision in which crisis-hit countries in southern Europe could fall victim to military coups or popular uprisings as interest rates soar and public services collapse because their governments run out of money.

“As the crisis begins to create angst across all of Europe, many of the people in once pro-EU countries are beginning to curse the day their governments sacrificed their own sovereign currencies on the fiscally bloodstained altar of the EU's euro. They have suffered inflation and job losses while their own finance ministers are hamstrung to do much about it as they are not allowed to set an interest rate which would be of benefit to their economies.

“As Lord Monkton, who is now the joint Deputy Leader of the UK Independence Party, pointed out in the Daily Telegraph (15th June 2010), the EU is now proposing to undermine all the EU's democratic governments by vetting their budgets before their own parliaments see them, yet it hasn't been able to sign off its own books as it can't account for £billions of its own budget which has gone missing due to fraud, corruption and gross incompetence. “The only threat of a dictatorship in Europe is the dictatorship being created by the European Union itself.”

Lisbon Treaty to be altered?

Remember the Lisbon Treaty; that was the relatively short pact between the 27 member nations of the EU that allowed for a position of a full time EU president to be created that into power Ex Belgium Prime Minister Herman Van Rompuy to act as a puppet, figurine type of president only.

It now seems the tables may have turned and what they may have unleashed instead may have been the Beast of Revelation as the Lisbon treaty is altered time and time again giving more and more powers over to the EU Commission and Van Rompuy as they contest each other, or join together, for control of the EU.

Accordingly, are we seeing in EU president Herman Van Rompuy and EU Commission president Jose Manuel Barrasso the Antichrist and the False Prophet consecutively?

So much for the end point of European integration. The European Central Bank has added its voice to calls for the Lisbon Treaty to be altered to allow for increased "economic government" - most likely, involving the European Commission "punishing" nations who don't fall into line with spending directives.

EU Actif reports that the ECB submitted a report to Herman van Rompuy's council of finance ministers, recommending that "an EU country would have to prove to its neighbours that it does not deserve to be punished for exceeding the EU's debt targets."

The burden of proof would lie with the accused nation, which would then have to muster a majority of countries willing to support it. Clearly the process would be open to abuse, with countries forming allegiances or exercising influence in other unrelated areas to secure a "qualified majority" to avoid punishment. Smaller countries with less influence, such as Greece, would be more likely to feel the EU's wrath than other high-debt nations with beaucoup de clout, such as France.

EU Actif, which is largely uncritical of EU affairs, notes that the proposals amount to a "power grab" for the European Commission (which is itself in a struggle for superiority with van Rompuy's gang of finance ministers and the European Parliament).

It would more than likely mean that the Lisbon Treaty is changed to accommodate this new economic government. While EUrophiles claim that Lisbon represents the high watermark of European federalism, EURSOC has warned that the treaty's self-amending nature means that its corrosive effect on the democratic institutions of European nations will only become apparent over time. Changing its wording to allow for the "punishment" of European nations who can't abide by deficit rules goes even further, however, and demonstrates the contempt in which Eurocrats hold even their own rulebook.

British sceptics saw an opportunity for David Cameron to call a British referendum on Lisbon, given that an altered treaty would not be the same one we signed up for. Cameron has indicated that he would be happy to allow the EU to rewrite Lisbon for Eurozone states, provided Britain was left out of any economic government; we shall see.

It is unlikely any prospective European government would stop at the exercise of sanctions. Even as plans are being laid for these new EU powers, the European Commission is extending its reach into other areas. Yesterday it revealed suggestions to "take politics out of European pensions" by introducing laws to ensure retirement age rose in accordance with rising life expectancy.

It doesn't propose an EU-wide "retirement age", but rather a system in which nations would agree to automatic incremental rises in the age of retirement, with another international body ensuring that governments were able to meet their pension obligations.
This is quite possibly a sensible option, particularly if Eurozone nations will be sharing financial obligations as seems likely. The Germans famously don't want to retire at 69 to allow the Greeks to leave work at 50. However, it is likely to be resisted strongly in the Eurozone's southern nations, where low retirement ages are seen as a human right.

France faces severe street protests this autumn following the government's plan to slowly raise the retirement age; similar protests could spread across Italy and Spain. And as for the Northern Europeans, who retire much later but are likely to pay for it all - perhaps they'll riot too as their contributions and retirement ages are raised to pay for the sweet life in the South.

I predict Lisbon will be rewritten again, and again. It is increasingly evident that the future for the Eurozone is either total integration, or a split.

Some Questions and Possible Answers on Revelation Chapter 13?

The head of the economic governmentof Europe Herman Van Rompuy

There is something that has been bothering me for some time relative to the prophecies of Revelation Chapter 13 that someone out there in cyber land may be able to be of some assistance with.

Some of you out there may recall the prophecy mentions two beasts.

For many years I may have been acting under a false allusion that the first beast referred to the Antichrist while the second beast made reference to the False Prophet.

Yet, if this were the case all along I could not understand the Christian belief system which has very clearly made reference to the Mark of the Beast as being the mark of the Antichrist when quite clearly the mark was forced upon everyone by the second beast whom I have for so long thought was the False Prophet.

There are numerous others who call the second beast the FP and yet at the same time say the number of the Antichrist is 666 which adds further to the confusion.

This doesn't really worry me a great deal but it is something that I would like to clarify once and for all as it simply does not add up.

After serious contemplation I may have the answer.

We definitely know that there are two separate beasts because later on in the book of the Revelation we are told that Satan is thrown into the lake of fire were the False Prophet and the Antichrist are.

But could it be that the first beast of Revelation Chapter 13 is the False Prophet while the second Beast is the Antichrist, and not vice versa.

I can only recall of the instance of Revelation Chapter 13 where we learn that the Beast has ten horns and ten crowns. That is the only instance I can find of that occurring.

Beforehand in Daniel Chapter 7 there are four separate horns with the final one being the Antichrist.

Each of these little horns has ten horns but there is no mention of the ten crowns and ten horns there at all, just ten horns.

If what I suppose is correct then I could name the current French president Nicholas Sarkozy as being the first beast of Revelation Chapter 13, the False Prophet as it was he who brought together and co-chaired the ten nations of the Mediterranean Union and it has been he who has been acting as if he were the Antichrist for so long now so much so that it has led many to believe that he was indeed the Antichrist.

Remembering that he was appointed as the head of the economic government of Europe if that is correct then second beast who has two horns like a lamb and forces everyone to take a mark for buying and selling could only be the newly appointed EU president Herman Van Rompuy.

Here is how I have described Van Rompuy on my blog spot at www.there-is-no-rapture.blogspot.com:

""Van Rompuy is known in Belgium for his inscrutable, mouse-like, mild-mannered exterior and his self-deprecating humour. He was in office in Belgium just a year and managed to keep Flemish- and French-speaking factions of the country from tearing the nation in two through conciliatory methods. Yet his past antics of political subterfuge indicate much more to his inner man than just a guy who composes haiku during parliamentary meetings. Unassuming Van Rompuy has a history of getting his way. He advises that the path to power is to appear innocuous and unobtrusive, yet his methods have at times appeared more underhanded than meek.""

Sounds very much like a lamb to me while being a master of trickery at the same time?

REVELATION CHAPTER 13
And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.

And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindred's, and tongues, and nations.

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

If any man have an ear, let him hear.

He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six.

HERMAN VAN ROMPUY AND THE EU SUPERSTATE

European Union leaders congregated in Toronto June 26th and 27th in a Group of 20 meeting to address the struggle of economies world-wide. Those leaders agreed to take steps toward job growth, the reform and strengthening of financial institutions like banks, and economic stimulation world-wide. At its conclusion, Presidents José Manuel Barroso and Herman Van Rompuy declared the meeting a success – the premier forum for international cooperation. Earlier in June, Van Rompuy announced two additional upcoming meetings; one in September on foreign affairs and one in January and February 2011 to deal with energy issues.

As of December 1, 2009, the European Union’s Treaty of Lisbon aspires to mold and uplift the 27 member nations of Western Europe into a more powerful single voice on the world stage. On January 1, 2010, Herman Van Rompuy went from obscure prime minister of Belgium to first appointed Permanent President of Europe.

Permanent President of Europe? That’s right; and not by public election, but by appointment of the members of the European Council. The “permanent” appellation is cloudy; Van Rompuy’s 30-month term leading the council ends in May 2012.

“As president of the European Council, I will listen to every country and make sure every country comes out a winner in every negotiation,” Van Rompuy told the press last fall when he was first appointed as the EU’s first full-time president.

Van Rompuy is known in Belgium for his inscrutable, mouse-like, mild-mannered exterior and his self-deprecating humor. He was in office in Belgium just a year and managed to keep Flemish- and French-speaking factions of the country from tearing the nation in two through conciliatory methods. Yet his past antics of political subterfuge indicate much more to his inner man than just a guy who composes haiku during parliamentary meetings.

Unassuming Van Rompuy has a history of getting his way. He advises that the path to power is to appear innocuous and unobtrusive, yet his methods have at times appeared more underhanded than meek. His critics point out that he broke a major 2007 campaign promise to split up his own political party’s illegally proportioned election district, and he did so purposely and quietly. As Speaker of the parliament, he delayed a vote on the proposed district split, going so far as to have the locks changed on the session meeting rooms so that dissenting parliamentary members could not meet, He avoided his own office for over a week (purportedly) to avoid opening a related letter from concerned opponents. His opponents assert that he works not for the interests of the people, but for big government.

Herman Van Rompuy is an enigmatic, camera shy man who avoids elaborate public statements and media exposure. Van Rompuy is a federalist who wants the individual nation-state symbols, flags, and currencies to be set aside in exchange for one set of European icons. He is geared to meld the EU nations into a single economy and body, even against individual nations’ objections to one federal government and the new taxes that come with it. Van Rompuy said last autumn, “The financing of the welfare state, irrespective of the social reform we implement, will require new resources. The possibility of financial levies at European level needs to be seriously reviewed.”

Van Rompuy is pushing for Brussels to collect one Europe-wide Euro tax on financial transactions based on the unpopular Tobin tax. It could look a lot like an American national sales tax. Opponents of such a tax include Poland - which is not one of the eleven “insider” eurozone member countries and therefore fears losing power to them - and Great Britain, which has traditionally balked at surrendering its currency to the Euro.

Van Rompuy is currently working to assemble a taskforce of European leaders within the economic union of the eurozone of Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia and Spain. Eight other states are obliged to join the eurozone once they fulfill the strict entry criteria.

It will be very intriguing as US citizens to watch the European economy, freedoms, and spending over the upcoming months and years. Will Herman Van Rompuy, David Cameron, Jose Manuel Barroso lead Western Europe to an undeniably one-man or one-entity governed superpower, or will the countries and the individuals in them be weakened by too much governance and a loss of their own freedom of choice and enterprise?

There is power play going on within the EU between the incumbent EU president Herman Van Rompuy and the current French president Nicholas Sarkozy

PARIS, June 19 (Xinhua) -- Within a week, French President Nicolas Sarkozy made a whirlwind visit to Germany, Britain, Russia and Brussels where EU leaders just had their summit, trying to tune up and harmonize European voices on international economic governance.

The attempt was made right before the G20 and G8 summits on economic governance.

Regarding bilateral issues of political ties, security consensus and business contracts, the French president got almost all he wanted, but in terms of Europe-wide economic governance and global financial regulation, Sarkozy had both gains and losses.

TURNING UP ACCORD
President Sarkozy made Berlin the first stop of his visit.

After months of rifts over financial regulations in Europe and national austerity measures, Sarkozy succeeded in reaching concrete consensus with German Chancellor Angela Merkel on global banking levies and financial transaction taxes in the postponed meeting.

With this common basis between the traditional European motors, the EU council meeting on the following day agreed on publishing "stress tests" of leading European banks by end-July, reflecting a pillar proposition in a joint letter by Sarkozy and Merkel to EU President Herman van Rompuy.

Just days before the G20 and G8 summits in Canada, Sarkozy rapidly stretched his visit to Britain and even outside the EU bloc to Russia.

Last Friday, Sarkozy also became the first French president to mark General Charles de Gaulle's speech date, a routine ceremony in France.

He was warmly welcomed by Prince Charles and accompanied by British Prime Minister David Cameron to pay tribute to soldiers of both countries. Cameron hailed the "great relationship" with France, which was well illustrated by a full-ceremonial troop parade.

Sarkozy's Saturday visit to Russia was highlighted by signing business contracts ranging from natural gas (GDF Suez) to space technology (Arianespace), amid strong appeals for closer ties on global economic arena.

The G20 summit should think about a new financial system, even a new international currency system, to replace the outdated one based on the Bretton Woods conference, Sarkozy told a joint conference with Russian President Dmitry Medvedev, who voiced his support and went even further by calling for more currencies as reserves other than the euro and the dollar.

TURNING DOWN RIFT
Clear rifts and nuance difference were played down during Sarkozy's visits.

Seeking for common ground in Europe, the French president yielded to Merkel's insistence that closer "economic government" should involve all 27members of the EU instead of just the 16 members of the eurozone, which means the economic "secretariat" advocated by French officials gave way to "a common vision" between France and Germany.

Sarkozy said he was convinced in a rarely low-key speech at a packed news conference in Berlin.

Most Vision.
European leaders, especially EU President van Rompuy, didn't buy France's "economic government"

"We must avoid dividing lines ... There is no need to create new institutions," he said at the European Council summit following the Sarkozy-Merkel meeting.

Besides the concession on the economic secretariat idea, French officials said that France and Germany would like to make more compromises on issues of restrained budget and tighter economic governance across Europe.

During his Paris tour, the British prime minister has expressed his reservations about the eurozone crisis, and even insisted on staying outside eurozone forever at the Brussels summit.

Britain and Germany's military presence in Afghanistan, their historical friendship and even the World Cup, obviously diluted the economic issues, but their top leaders' better-than-before personal ties are definitely a favourable start.

Franco-Russian cooperation focused more on business and trade ties, but their warship deals aroused criticism within the NATO bloc.

Without mentioning the value of over 20 bilateral contracts, the two leaders underlined the importance of G20, calling it "a group of 20 wealthy and developing nations."

BRACING FOR G20
On the resilience after the global economic crisis, France, as one of the main engines of European economy, is eager to take the lead in designing a new international financial system, supposedly a major task of the G20 talk in Canada this week.

However, Europe was lagging behind the global recovery and facing great risk in the wake of the Greece debt crisis, which made a coordinated platform in Europe imperative.

It was against this backdrop that Sarkozy's whirlpool visit to major European countries not only sought ways for faster recovery but also tried to sell France's financial proposals to floor a potential new system, which could include European stabilizer fund, global banking tax, stricter economic governance and others.

It seems that the French president is going to Toronto with at least a target in mind: if it misses the G20 summit in June, France will continue to work for the similar, if not bigger target after the country takes over the rotating presidency of the G20 and G8 in November.