The four horsemen of the apocalypse - the White Horse, the Red Horse, the Black Horse and the Pale HorseTHE DAY OF THE LORD
The phrase “day of the Lord” usually identifies events that take place at the end of history (Isaiah 7: 18-25) and is often closely associated with the phrase “that day.”
One key to understanding these phrases is to note that they always identify a span of time during which God personally intervenes in history, directly or indirectly, to accomplish some specific aspect His plan.
Most people associate the day of the Lord with a period of time or a special day that will occur when God’s will and purpose for His world and for mankind will be fulfilled.
Some scholars believe that the day of the Lord will be a longer period of time than a single day—a period of time when Christ will reign throughout the world before He cleanses heaven and earth in preparation for the eternal state of all mankind.
THE DAY OF THE LORD - ONE MAN'S PERSPECTIVE
There are three are even four different views relative to what is commonly known as the Rapture of the Church; Pre-Tribulation, Mid Tribulation, Post Tribulation, and no Rapture at all.
As the administrator of this blog I hold fourth view that there is not going to be Rapture at all; instead I hold the view that those Christians who remain on the earth after the Great Tribulation has come and gone will be gathered together and caught up to meet the Lord in the air.
(However, I do not personally define that as being a Rapture in the sense that most believe there will be a rapture whereby millions and millions of Christians suddenly float up into the air and into Heaven forever.)
Christians will then will return with the Lord to reign with him for a time without end on the earth.
The rage and arguments over the timing of an alleged Rapture continue to come to the boil time and time again and here is the response of one blogger to a letter that he received relative to a Pre-Tribulation Viewpoint of the Rapture.
The author of this letter holds a Post Tribulation point of view and I have decided to repeat it here because it holds the closet analogy that I have found yet to an opinion comparative to ""the Day of the Lord"" that I hold myself.
To this date there has been no reply from the intended recipient of the letter but I still wait with bated breath to see if there will ever be one.
LETTER TO A PRE TRIBULATION FRIEND
Dear ......
Many thanks for your letter on the recent videos. Iron sharpens iron and I am grateful for the time you must have spent in preparing this.
So let’s get to it.
First: Of course we are friends. Your love for Maria and me is obvious and very much appreciated and reciprocated.
You know how much we love seeing you and the fun we always have together is something Maria and I so enjoy.
Sorry the music and opening statement were not to your taste. You are not the first to say so. Some of my other pre-tribulation friends don’t like the music either.
Also the statement is something some of them disagree with too, if for different reasons than yours.
They think it is too long winded.
Others, like my pre-tribulation friend Simon who makes the professional dvds, like it.
No accounting for taste. But if I am honest the majority vote with you on the music.
Actually, ..... the opening statement wasn’t “these people say they understand the Bible”. It was “They tell us we have nothing to fear” followed by “They claim to know the Bible”.
“They claim to know” is a bit different from “These people say they understand..” and a little softer on the ears as “These people” would sound quite dismissive and proud.
I know it is a small difference but I believe an important one.
Also is it not true that prophecy teachers DO claim to know the Bible? If you do not feel you have a grasp of the scriptures what right do we have to stand in a pulpit? So on that basis I feel my statement stands and is not derogatory or insulting but a statement of fact.
I try my best never to come over as a know it all otherwise I wouldn’t include in my conversations with you “I hope I am wrong and you are right”.
I don’t know about Paul Wilkerson, but I know when you and I debate we use scriptures to back our point as often as possible.
To say, as does Philip Powell, we must not be too dogmatic about the rapture timing and the tribulation seems odd to me when Jesus Himself told us when He would return to gather the elect….but more on that later.
Believe me, ...., I am as sure as I can be the rapture is not pre-trib. My saying I hope you are right is just that; a saying. And we must always leave that opening for the scripture we may have missed that clarifies the pre-tribulation position. Though I haven’t had anyone give it to me even though I would love to see it.
Regardless of what Tim La Haye says about post tribbers I do not know one who wants to go through the tribulation. La Haye thinks we look forward to it.
Now if that isn’t an insulting statement what is?
You quoted Luke 21:34 Don’t be overcome with dissipation and cares of this life
Dissipation means (I know you know this) unrestrained indulgence in physical pleasures, especially alcohol, excessive expenditure; wastefulness. Combine that with the anxieties of life or in the Greek: Merimna meaning distraction and I think you have a picture of a backslider; one falling away and losing his or her salvation should they not repent before the Lord’s return.
Also you write “the context is (from verse 25 onwards) the last days”. But if we compare scripture with scripture it is clear when we look at verse 25 onwards we are looking at events coming up to the end of, and AFTER, the tribulation not during or before: compare Matthew:24:26-31
Matthew 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matthew 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mathew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mathew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:21-27
Mark 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mark 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Luke 21: 25-28
Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Notice in each of these gospels the Lord Jesus tells us when He will return and collect the elect.
He even tells His disciples, which I agree with you means all believers, that at this time and at no previous time they are to “look up for your redemption draws nigh”.
It seems a mystery to me that many will use Matthew 24 and say it is for the Jews, then read the same Olivet discourse in Luke 21 and say “look up for your redemption draws nigh” is not for the Jews but for all believers and a pre tribulation rapture. This is the same Olivet Discourse which folks say is for the Jews in Matthew and Christians in Luke!!
The events Jesus had just immediately mentioned in Luke 21: 25 onward were post tribulational and match perfectly with Matt 24’s “Immediately after the tribulation”…then the gathering of the elect follows.
Some good, sincere guys also go for a partial rapture where those who are ready are raptured while the rest are left to be purified in the tribulation and are collected at the end.
But we must remember the foolish virgins did not go through the night (tribulation) and then get into the wedding. They were cast out and there is no mention of a second chance. Again backsliders come to mind who have no oil (Spirit).
One other thing, the groom came at the darkest hour not before the night came...pre-trib.
So I for one can’t see a partial rapture leaving the rest to get their act cleaned up. Instead I see the groom arriving at the darkest time then judging those unfaithful servants, foolish virgins etc.
The next passage you quoted was 2 Thessalonians. 2.
The first word I think we need to look at is not apostasia but Parousia which every pre-tribber I know of (Ice, La Haye etc) says is the pre-tribulation rapture even though the word is usually placed in a post tribulatio scenario in the scriptures.
In 2Thessalonians. 2:1 Paul mentions 'our gathering' after the Parousia. First the Parousia (coming) then the gathering.
Several verses later (2:8) Paul mentions the Parousia again but it is definitely in a post trib scenario.
Immediately before these verses, in 2 Thessalonians. 1:6-10, Paul is speaking about Jesus’ post- tribulation coming and he says in verse 6,7 that it is then we shall have rest when He is revealed in flaming fire, not before, which ties in with Matthew.24: 31, 1 Thessalonians. 4, Revaltion.6, 14 and 19.
So it would seem odd to be writing in 2 Thessalonians. Chapter 1 about the Lord’s post tribulation parousia promising rest at that time and not before, then to write in Chapter 2 about a pre tribulation parousia in verse 1and then to continue to write about a post tribulation parousia in 2:8.
Also in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 the disciples asked the Lord for the sign of His Parousia and He replied by telling them of His post tribulational return for the elect……not one hint of a pre-tribulation Rapture. Ever.
Okay so let’s look at Apostasia. In the Greek of Paul’s day the word apostasia meant a departure from a religious or political affiliation. In fact the word was still used to mean the same in 1965 when members of a Greek trade union defected causing the toppling of Greek Prime minister Papendreou. These defectors were known as the “apostates”.
So I can’t see how apostasia means the physical departure of the church to Heaven because to me Paul is saying the Parousia and our gathering and the day of the Lord will not come until first the apostasia, the defection from Christ and the appearance of the Antichrist.
Interestingly FB Meyer whom the PWMI are proud to put up as one of their main founders held this same view in his Bible commentary. I sent the particular portion of his commentary to ..... and he wrote back saying I had misread it!
But Meyer had written concerning 2 Thessalonians. 2 “First the man of sin then the Son of Man.”
Also concerning the Day of the Lord, Isaiah, Joel and Jesus agree certain events must take place before it comes:
Isaiah:
Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isaiah 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isaiah 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Joel:
Joel 3:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
Joel 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
Joel 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Joel 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
(Tie the above verses in with Revelation 14:14-16 and Rev. 19.)
Jesus: Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Revelation:
Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Interestingly all 6 seals of Revelation correspond to the signs Jesus gave in Matthew 24
(see attached page).
So after looking at these scriptures I believe the day of the Lord begins after the tribulation just as the Lord Jesus said. It is only then in Revelation.6:17 do men cry the day of God’s wrath IS come. Indicating it had not fallen until this moment.
Malachi also says Elijah will come before the day of the Lord.
If the day of the Lord encompasses the entire 7 years of Daniel’s 70th week that cannot happen until Elijah appears and events take place in the sun and moon and stars.
But Jesus says they do not happen until after the tribulation and it is only then He mentions a Rapture.
Joel says they happen at the same time as the battle of Armageddon and the earth is reaped at the same time as is show in Revelation. 14.
So I believe the church is Raptured around the time of the start of the day of the Lord after the tribulation.
Interestingly the bride only makes her appearance and is given white robes to wear in Revelation 19 immediately before Armageddon which ties in with Revelation. 14, Isaiah 13 and Joel 3’s valley of Jehoshaphat.
Surely the bride hasn’t been sitting around for 7 years or more following a pre tribulation rapture waiting to get dressed?
This is immediately before Armageddon, around the time when the cosmic signs take place, just before the day of the Lord. Exactly as the Lord Jesus stated in Matthew 24 etc.
It is plain to me this is a post tribulation Rapture. If I am wrong someone please show me.
I am not perfect at all, ask Maria, but looking at scripture and taking it at face value there is not one ounce of a scripture for a pre tribulation rapture that is as plain as these for a post trib one.
It just is not there.
Anyway enough of a rant let’s move on…..are we still friends? I hope so.
The Philadelphian church.
Revelation 3:10:
Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Firstly: There is no scriptural warrant for saying the 7 churches are 7 church ages.
That is inferred and seems to be “adding to the words of the book” something strictly forbidden.
If however we grant they are pictures of 7 church ages and the Philadelphian church age is raptured, that still leaves one more church age, the Laodicean, which means the church is still on earth after the rapture!
But one still has to prove from scripture the 7 churches are 7 ages.
The Laodiceans are still the Lord’s people because he pleads with them to change their ways (v 18) and says he loves them (v 19) and promises rewards to the overcomers (v 21).
If one follows the “7 ages” idea this also knocks imminence on the head because if the church has always expected the Lord at any moment they were wasting their time because the 7 ages had to be fulfilled. These “ages” could not be fulfilled if the church had (imminently) been raptured at any time before their completion.
Also when we come to Revelation 3:10:
Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I also will keep thee from the hour of the trial that is about to come upon all the world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.
Surely the words “keep from” Tereo ek in Greek, must have the same meaning for all readers whether Philadelphia in the first century or the global church of the last days.
So when was the church of Philadelphia Raptured?
I know it sounds like a stupid, dumb question but if these words do not mean the same for all readers then how do we establish what they mean for anyone?
Answer: by our own interpretation of the verse which, in the end, can mean whatever we want it to mean.
I notice you gave me a whole wealth of scriptures for this verse, Revelation 3:10
One verse I particularly noticed was John 17 when the Lord prays for His followers:
John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them (tereo ek) from the evil.
The Lord Jesus prays using the same words “keep from” Tereo ek that He uses in Revelation 3:10. But it is obvious He is not praying for them to be raptured, in fact he actually says so.
It’s the same Lord Jesus speaking in John
It’s the same Lord Jesus speaking in Revelation.
It’s the same apostle writing in both books.
It’s the same Greek words he uses in John 17:15 and in Revelation 3:10.
But when reading John 17:15 we are asked to believe these words mean exactly the opposite to the same words he writes in Revelation3:10!
Surely not.
Or how about Jeremiah and Jacob’s trouble?
Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
You’ve probably guessed “out of” in the Greek Septuagint of Jer. 30:7 is the same as Revelation 3:10 and John 17:15, Tereo ek.
So does this mean the Jews will be Raptured before the time of Jacob’s trouble?
Of course not. It means those faithful will go through and not give way to temptation, to give up; they will endure it.
Why then should the same Greek phrase in Jeremiah 30:7 and John 17:15 mean the same but then mean something totally different when read in Revelation 3:10?
And to add to the confusion, we are expected to believe this means one thing for the church of Philadelphia (they were not Raptured) but another for the end time church (they will be)?
So from a simple reading I can only see a protection from temptation to fall during the troubles not a snatching out before they begin.
Interestingly the Philadelphian church was protected from falling during the persecution by the emperor Trajan soon after this letter was written and it still exists today.
But the point is the Philadelphian church remained on the planet.
I notice also you state that post tribbers believe John 17:15 means they shall be kept from physical harm and thus the saints in the tribulation will be also protected in the same way.
I don’t know what post tribulation. book you read, ...., because all the ones I have read on the subject (I concede I have certainly not read them all) say the opposite.
The verse means to be kept from falling, giving way under intense pressure and temptation not physical protection.
If the Lord Jesus’ prayer in John 17 was for the physical protection of the apostles, the prayer failed miserably. They were stoned, whipped, beaten, imprisoned, beheaded, crucified upside down and so on.
All died terrible deaths apart from John.
But they kept faithful and did not give way to the temptation to throw in the towel.
So the Lord’s prayer was fulfilled. They were kept from the evil one in that they were upheld from falling to temptation to give up.
Those faithful who go through the tribulation will likewise be kept from giving way to the temptation to follow the antichrist and avoid persecution.
As with the early church many will defect and betray their fellow believers during the tribulation.
But………. pre-tribbers still have to prove from scripture the 7 churches are 7 ages or the argument that Rev 3:10 is a rapture verse for the end time church falls at the first hurdle.
My feeling, for what it is worth as a layman, is that the letters were foremost to the 7 churches and are a message to us also because we find every kind of believer in the global church that we find in the 7 churches, and that is as far as I think we can take the idea.
Luke 21:34-36 “Pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen and that you may be able to stand before the son of Man.”
To take these verses from the same Olivet discourse we find in Matthew and Mark where Jesus continually says to his disciples “when you see…” and then to use them as a proof text for a pre tribulation rapture just doesn’t seem to fit right.
Why warn your disciples about the end times saying to them “when you see” and then say “Now pray that you will be raptured before any of this happens?”
Besides “escape” in the Greek is “ekpheugo” which simply means to “escape out of the midst of.” Also the immediate verses before this shows Jesus was speaking to those who would live in the time of the Antichrist.
Again comparing scripture with scripture we find this fits exactly with Revelation 7 which follows the sealing of the 144,000 Jews and before that the start of the day of the Lord in chapter 6.
In Rev 6 the seals take us through most of the 7 years to the opening of the 6th seal and the cosmic signs at the end of the tribulation (Matthew 24: 29-31; Mark 13:24-27; Luke 21:25-28).
Following this, in Revelation 7, we see the sealing of the 144,000 Jews (nowhere does it say they are evangelists) then we see a great crowd appear in heaven who are dressed in white and who have come “out of” great tribulation.
Rev 19 repeats the above. After Babylon is destroyed, Chapter 18, a great crowd appears in heaven and dress in white. This is the bride. Then she follows Christ down to Armageddon.
Link this also with Revelation. 14 :8 Babylon is fallen; the earth is reaped (rapture) verse 14,16; The angels gather antichrist and his armies to Armageddon verses 18-20;
See also chapter 16: Revelation 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
Revelation 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Revelation 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Revelation 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
If there is a pre tribulation Rapture it seems odd for the Lord to issue a warning to believers “I am coming as a thief” a term used for a pre tribulation Rapture, and a command to watch, right here before Armageddon. I do not agree the “hour of trial” is the wrath of God. It is an hour of trial, testing, temptation the same testing the early church and the church throughout history have endured. But this time it will be more severe, more violent, more widespread.
As you said to “keep from” is to be unpolluted from the world. From giving in to temptation. We can’t do as you have, and put that on a par with “famines, earthquakes, wars, floods etc.”
Not one of the scriptures you gave re; “kept from”, “keep from” suggested anything like that.
The church has always experienced temptations but she has never been lifted out of the planet to avoid it. Why now? But she will be removed before the day of the Lord.
You agreed with me that the seals in Revelation 5 correspond to Matt 24. Both of which conclude with the day of the Lord and the cosmic signs given by Isaiah, Joel and Jesus.
Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isaiah 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isaiah 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil,
Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
Matthew 24: 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
In Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Revealtion 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Notice, this is at the end of the tribulation and it is only now they cry out “the great day of his wrath Is come.” Judgment is about to fall now not 7 years earlier.
Noah and Lot left the same day the judgment fell.
We leave just before the day of the Lord at the end of the tribulation.
Finally we seem to have come around to the end of your letter and to the fact that the crowd comes out of great tribulation. Revelation 7: 13, 14. Actually although you write “Having escaped from..” it doesn’t say that. It says “come out of.”
Surely I cannot come out of something I have not been in, can I? If I come out of the bath (a rare happening, I know) I haven’t avoided being in it have I?
You write it is “a motion of one place to another”. Yes out of the tribulation to the clouds and even if we use the word you used, “escape”, the Greek word in Luke for escape means out from the midst of. Not before; not avoiding the object.
At this moment I am sure the Rapture is post tribulational because Jesus said so.
I know that sounds cocky which I most certainly hope I am not. I must simply trust what the word says, as must we all.
But sadly we seem to be reading different books.
It’s a mystery to me why you can’t see the same as me. And I am sure you are puzzled as to why I am unable to grasp your point of view.
But if “keep from” means to endure and stand against temptation
If escape means from the midst of,
If the reaping in Joel and Revelation is just prior to Armageddon,
If the crowd / bride appears in heaven just before Armageddon in Rev 7, and 19,
If Paul says we go around the time of the day of the Lord,
If Jesus puts the cosmic events preceding the day of the Lord after the tribulation,
If Jesus says he will collect us after the tribulation when the cosmic events occur……
I cannot go with my dear friends who see otherwise when scripture says not one word about a rapture, reaping, gathering or crowd suddenly appearing in heaven before the tribulation but instead consistently places these events following the tribulation as the day of the Lord commences.
My pastor is pre-tribulation, My church is pre-tribulation, 99.9% of the places I preach in are pre-trib. And
I love them all.
Please forgive me if I am blind. I cannot see a pre trib rapture and I wish I could.
In Him.
Your friend and brother.
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